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[Music]
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welcome to the scotland's choice podcast
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the journey to our referendum is
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underway so join us as we discuss how
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together we can build a fairer more
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equal and a more prosperous scotland our
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goal is to ensure that our listeners are
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informed that they're encouraged to get
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involved and will hopefully inspire
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others to think about the possibilities
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for scotland because
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as our country renews we need to choose
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our own future
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before somebody else chooses it for us
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i'm your host drew henry mp and in this
00:41
episode i'm in conversation with ian
00:44
blatford mp ian is the mp for ross sky
00:47
and lacava the largest uk parliamentary
00:49
constituency at over 12 000 square
00:52
kilometers that's even bigger than mine
00:54
he was elected in 2015 and in 2017
00:58
became westminster group leader for the
00:59
smp
01:01
born in edinburgh he now lives in a
01:02
crofton sky with his wife anne and he
01:05
really is a good guy even though he's a
01:06
passionate lifelong hibs fan ian thanks
01:10
for joining us on scotland's choice my
01:12
pleasure good opportunity to discuss
01:14
issues which i know are important to
01:16
people in scotland and you know i think
01:18
the next few months is really going to
01:19
be important period to give people
01:21
confidence that we've got the vision
01:23
we've got the plan in order we can
01:25
deliver a better a fairer a greener
01:27
scotland and this is an important part
01:29
of that whole process of talking with
01:31
people of course listening to the issues
01:33
that are important for people as well
01:34
talking about those issues that are
01:36
important to people pensions was one of
01:39
the big three topics
01:41
obviously alongside the likes of
01:43
currency and borders back in 2014 taking
01:46
a look back now ian what was on the
01:48
table then
01:50
how does it compare with what's on the
01:52
table now
01:53
but you know i think one of the things
01:54
the starting point has to be is what
01:56
happens to pensioners today
01:58
and what we've got is a patchwork quilt
02:01
of regulations and of oversight too many
02:03
changes to the
02:05
pensions ministers that have been in
02:07
place no certainty for people
02:09
and i think a lack of trust that people
02:11
have in pensions
02:12
and the commitment that i would give to
02:14
people on behalf of the snp
02:16
is that we would do things differently
02:18
so for example we would have a pensions
02:20
commissioner because it is important
02:23
that we look at this in a holistic way
02:25
you can't keep changing things on a
02:26
short-term basis you've got to give
02:28
people that commitment that you will
02:30
look after the long-term interest so
02:32
people can rely
02:33
on both the state pension but also have
02:36
the right kind of regime that encourages
02:37
people to save for their old age as well
02:39
but you know one of the things i would
02:42
say for today is that the uk has one of
02:44
the lowest pensions in europe and in
02:47
fact the whole way that the uk looks at
02:49
it is wrong-headed they talk about it as
02:52
a benefit it's not a benefit yeah people
02:54
pay national insurance contributions and
02:56
they've got to treat people with a lot
02:58
more respect the wasp people are a good
03:00
example those that were denied their
03:02
legitimate pensions but as far as the
03:04
snp is concerned what is most important
03:07
is that we have got a commitment that we
03:08
make sure that pensions are sustainable
03:10
and there's a commitment that we will
03:12
increase over time that value of the
03:14
state pension in an independent school i
03:17
want to come back to the waspy women in
03:19
a moment or two to explain about what's
03:22
happened to them and to talk about their
03:24
situation but you've been talking there
03:25
about
03:26
the pension situation isn't the case we
03:29
currently have under the uk the poorest
03:32
pensions in western europe yeah we do i
03:34
mean it's an absolute disgrace the way
03:36
that people have been treated and i
03:38
think there was an acceptance that the
03:40
level of provision for pensioners was
03:42
too low and that's one of the reasons
03:44
why we had the triple lock so at least
03:46
pensioners were protected and of course
03:48
what we've seen over the course of the
03:50
last few weeks that despite the fact
03:51
that was a manifesto commitment from the
03:53
conservatives indeed a manifested
03:54
commitment that the snp have had for a
03:57
number of elections that the tories tore
03:59
up that contract
04:01
they tore up
04:02
the commitment to make sure that
04:05
pensions would rise in line with wages
04:07
it was an absolute disgrace and it once
04:10
again shows that as far as the tory
04:12
government's concerned the pensioners
04:14
are expendable
04:15
pensioners will never be expendable in
04:17
an independent scotland and what we find
04:19
since 2014 is as you've said all those
04:21
promises um about
04:23
you know remaining in the uk in terms of
04:25
pensions they're just happy there's
04:27
jettison them
04:28
there is all of that and
04:30
and of course i think also as well
04:32
you've got to look at what you do to
04:33
encourage people to save for pensions
04:36
for the long term so you've got that mix
04:38
of your state pension and your private
04:40
pension so one of the big issues here is
04:42
about what's called the pensions
04:43
dashboard
04:45
and we're delighted that there's going
04:46
to be a pensions dashboard that's going
04:47
to be available for people but it has to
04:50
give people all the information that
04:51
they need and this is something that
04:53
should be reprovided by the dwp
04:56
where you can
04:57
bring together all the information
04:59
and on the investments that people have
05:01
made but there has to be fairness within
05:03
all that system as well because
05:05
i think for the average man in the
05:07
street sometimes these things are seen
05:09
as more complex than they need to be
05:11
and one of the things that perhaps is
05:13
not understood as much as it should be
05:15
is that pensions tax relief is in effect
05:17
in the main a subsidy for higher rate
05:20
taxpayers so we need to reform the
05:22
system to make sure there's an incentive
05:24
for everybody to save effectively for
05:27
their older age to make sure that
05:28
they've got the
05:30
the protections that they actually need
05:32
and that's the commitment that we would
05:33
give as an independent scottish
05:35
government
05:37
and of course
05:38
one of the other aspects of the last few
05:40
years and all the changes that have
05:41
taken place
05:42
have been what's often referred to as
05:44
pensions freedom
05:45
but there's a glaring
05:47
fault with the way that systems works
05:49
because the uk government bases pensions
05:52
freedom on giving what they call
05:54
guidance now okay that's fair enough up
05:56
to a point but it stops short of giving
05:59
people advice
06:00
and often there's a barrier to people
06:02
getting the advice on an affordable
06:04
basis
06:05
that they that they actually want i
06:07
think one of the other issues of course
06:08
has been
06:10
another piece of legislation the uk
06:11
government brought in
06:13
uh was on the lifetime savings but again
06:16
lifetime savings as constructed by the
06:18
uk government are not as tax efficient
06:21
as savings and pensions so the waters
06:23
have been muddied the lack of clarity
06:26
the lack of proper oversight
06:28
we'll take our responsibilities properly
06:30
to make sure people are encouraged to
06:32
save they can do that in a system that
06:34
they can trust
06:36
where ultimately at the top of the tree
06:38
you'll have that pensions commissioner
06:40
that will have the authority to make
06:42
sure that people are looked after
06:43
properly
06:44
you mentioned how the waters have been
06:46
muddied in terms of pensions let's
06:49
return to the play to the waspy women
06:51
something that all of us as snp mps have
06:54
been raising at westminster for years
06:56
now on their behalf can you outline the
06:58
situation they've faced and does this
07:01
speak to the way the uk fails to care
07:03
about its responsibilities well it was
07:05
disgraceful and it was something that
07:06
happened over over a number of
07:07
governments where women's pensionable
07:09
age was increased from 60 to 67.
07:12
but the worst of this was
07:13
that the women concerned weren't given
07:15
effective notice of this taking place
07:17
now nobody
07:18
nobody would argue that there shouldn't
07:20
be equalization of pensionable age for
07:22
men and women but it's how you do it
07:24
in the pace of that change now you're
07:26
talking about what is in effect a seven
07:28
year increase that's taking place with
07:31
pension related for women interestingly
07:33
enough when the government had the
07:34
kremlin review yeah kridlin argued that
07:38
pensionable age should only increase for
07:39
one year per decade so there's no
07:41
question that women have been
07:43
badly dealt with and often women that
07:46
they were given literally months notice
07:48
that they weren't going to reach pension
07:50
with aj 16 has been deferred for a
07:52
number of years and actually at its very
07:54
worst
07:54
women women's pensionable age was
07:57
increasing by three months
07:59
for each calendar month so if you think
08:02
about it at that point if you were born
08:04
a year later than another another woman
08:06
then you actually found that your your
08:08
pencil pensionable age had increased by
08:10
three years it was extraordinarily
08:12
autonomous reasonable and fair to treat
08:14
people in that manner and it comes back
08:16
to this issue that we mentioned earlier
08:19
that people paid national insurance on
08:21
the basis they thought that they were
08:22
going to get a pension and the uk
08:24
government has railed out of this
08:26
because they've said this is a benefit
08:28
not an entitlement
08:30
it's very simple i mean the women are
08:32
due compensation for the way that
08:34
they've been treated many have faced
08:36
real hardship
08:37
people will be told there was one
08:38
pensions minister that told the women
08:40
concerned that they should go on
08:42
apprenticeship schemes
08:43
and of course a lot of these women have
08:45
been in
08:47
pretty hard physical jobs and you know
08:49
to the extent that they were
08:51
to a degree done
08:53
they weren't in a position where they
08:54
could easily work on many of course
08:57
facing ill health as well
08:58
this is simply no way to treat people
09:00
that have worked for
09:02
decades
09:03
and find that the government simply
09:05
wasn't taking part and its obligation to
09:08
make sure the women that were getting
09:10
their pensions at the time that they
09:12
thought that they were going to get them
09:14
you mentioned government there but this
09:16
isn't just the tories labor and the lib
09:18
dems have been in power during this
09:21
scandal it started with labour and
09:23
actually the biggest jump in women's
09:26
pensionable age was delivered under the
09:29
tony liberal coalition and of course it
09:31
was a liberal pensions minister that was
09:34
responsible for putting that through
09:35
where do the waspi women go from here
09:38
and how can an independent scotland do
09:40
things differently well of course
09:42
unfortunately
09:44
the clock has been ticking on this and
09:45
many of the the women that we've been
09:47
campaigning for have now reached um the
09:50
pensionable agent at a later date so it
09:52
is the issue of of compensation and of
09:54
course there are the dwp has been found
09:56
negligent by the pensions ombudsman but
09:58
the case hasn't reached its its full
10:00
maturity yet so we'll have to wait and
10:02
see what happens but i think it is the
10:04
case that the the uk government has an
10:06
obligation to make sure people
10:08
are properly recompensed and then the
10:10
commitment that we would give
10:12
is that women would be treated fairly
10:15
the pensioners overall would be treated
10:16
fairly and that will come through the
10:19
uh the proposition of having the
10:20
pensions commission that we talked about
10:22
that would be a holistic approach and i
10:24
think a lot of this is actually
10:26
you know broadening this out from
10:27
pensions a wee bit
10:28
it's about the obligation that you have
10:29
to society it's about the kind of
10:31
society that we that we want
10:34
and what i really hope is going to
10:35
happen over the course of the next few
10:37
months
10:37
is that we start to have a debate of
10:39
what type of country what are the values
10:41
that are that are important behind that
10:43
because this is really crucial to the
10:44
whole thing we want to deliver that
10:46
fairer society not just for
10:48
the older generation but for those in
10:50
work and of course our younger people
10:53
that are increasingly getting a
10:55
raw deal as well
10:57
and of course you do that by making sure
10:58
that you grow the economy in a
11:00
sustainable way you do that by making
11:02
sure that you embrace the the green
11:05
revolution
11:06
we want to be able to have that green
11:07
future we want to make sure that we can
11:09
get to net zero by at least 20 45
11:12
but delivering through green jobs
11:14
economic growth delivering investment in
11:17
the economy is an important part of that
11:19
to create the world but it's well for a
11:20
purpose yeah it's about making sure that
11:22
you're dealing with wellness it's making
11:24
sure that you have the social security
11:26
system that you want and one of the
11:27
things which is the priority of the
11:29
scottish government today is making sure
11:31
that we eradicate poverty and in
11:32
particular that we eradicate child
11:35
poverty and we've seen that in the
11:36
announcements of the scottish
11:37
governments made with the child payment
11:39
for example as an important part of that
11:41
so we'll take our responsibilities
11:43
seriously using the resources that we
11:46
generate individually and collectively
11:48
to make sure people are looked after
11:51
because i think you know sometimes
11:54
when i want to talk to the people of
11:55
scotland about this there's two sides of
11:57
the one coin about how you deliver that
11:59
prosperity and how you deliver social
12:01
justice as well and in a sense it's it's
12:04
appealing to that common wheel so it's
12:06
how you structure that system that
12:07
everybody sees that you benefit from
12:09
this but you also create
12:11
the climate you create the architecture
12:13
that companies will want to come and
12:15
invest
12:16
because you've got a healthy and a
12:18
wealthy and a balanced society one where
12:20
health and education are really two
12:23
important cornerstones about how you go
12:24
about that so that that kind of wider
12:26
debate about all of these things is
12:28
going to be really really important when
12:30
we have that discussion about whether or
12:32
not scotland should become an
12:33
independent country you touched on the
12:35
affordability of pensions and that's a
12:37
question that's always thrown about by
12:40
opponents of independence you know how
12:42
would scotland pay for pensions etc how
12:45
is it the countries of a similar size to
12:47
scotland afford to pay for their
12:49
pensions well i think you know in the
12:50
main when you look at european countries
12:52
certainly when you look at smaller
12:53
european countries in the main at the
12:55
level of prediction provision is
12:57
significantly greater than it is
12:59
in the united kingdom but let's just
13:01
explore this a bit um
13:03
and that's been quite a bit of time over
13:04
the last while with an economist by the
13:06
name of david skilling i would argue
13:08
he's one of the leading if not the
13:09
leading
13:10
economists in small countries around the
13:12
world
13:13
and there's something really interesting
13:14
when you start to examine this and i
13:16
would argue he would argue
13:18
that actually there aren't economies of
13:19
scale for large countries
13:21
and certainly when you you look in the
13:23
context of of europe uh you find that
13:26
small countries and you can reel them
13:28
often for those purposes i'm thinking of
13:30
countries with populations of 10 million
13:33
when you look over the course of the
13:34
last decade but you can choose others
13:36
that you tend to find that small
13:37
countries grow at a faster rate than
13:39
large countries so if you take the last
13:41
10 year period
13:42
small countries in europe have grown at
13:44
a rate of 3 per annum but the point is
13:46
what you need to do is you need to
13:48
create the circumstance and then this
13:50
happens over time where you're able to
13:52
deliver a higher rate of economic growth
13:54
and the same is true of the emerging
13:55
countries where you take the baltics as
13:57
an example as well
13:58
that then delivers the resources that
14:01
allows you to invest in your social
14:02
services that allows you to vent invest
14:04
in pension provision and so the whole
14:06
story about independence yes you want to
14:08
start on that journey you want to give
14:10
people hope that you can do better
14:12
but the real benefits of independence
14:15
are going to be felt
14:16
over the longer term yes it's important
14:18
for pensioners but i think a lot of
14:20
people that are pensioners want to think
14:22
about the future for the children and in
14:24
particular for their grandchildren and
14:26
it's about how you create that modern
14:28
prosperous dynamic country and
14:30
independent country in europe and now
14:32
over time you're able to give that hope
14:34
that you'll create the jobs you'll
14:36
deliver the investment in our economy
14:38
and you'll get to that end goal that we
14:40
all that we all want to get to
14:42
so uh post independence what would
14:45
happen to state pensions this was
14:47
another issue that was discussed in 2014
14:49
absolutely nothing
14:51
so the important point is that those
14:53
that have contributed well we've been
14:55
part of the uk have an entitlement for a
14:57
pension indeed that was made um
15:00
that was made clear by the chief
15:02
secretary to the treasury at the time of
15:04
the independence referendum in 2014 so
15:07
that commitment to continue to pay
15:08
pensions
15:10
rests with the uk government that's no
15:11
different to a uk citizen that chooses
15:14
for example to
15:16
live in canada or spain or france or
15:18
anybody else
15:19
then
15:20
that commitment to receive your pension
15:23
remains in place that's an obligation of
15:25
the uk government and what will happen
15:27
going forward it will be the obligation
15:29
of the scottish government to look after
15:31
pension entitlement from the period for
15:34
those are working
15:35
in gaining
15:37
or making pension contributions in the
15:39
period post independence
15:41
so that follows on
15:43
what about private not occupational
15:45
pensions would they also be
15:47
transferred in a in a frictionless way
15:50
yeah there'd be no difference because
15:51
that entitlement that you have to a
15:54
workplace pension whether that's to find
15:56
benefit contribution does not change
15:59
your access to that pension
16:01
is not based on the state you live in
16:04
it's not based on where you live it's
16:06
based on the fact that you have a
16:07
physical
16:08
right to that pension which has been
16:10
generated through your work experience
16:12
at the start of our discussion we talked
16:14
about some of the 2014 promises that
16:17
have been broken by the uk government
16:20
the the uk government's now announced
16:22
that it's scrapping the pensions triple
16:24
lock and this will obviously cost
16:26
pensioners the the triple lock was held
16:28
up in 2014 by unionists as you know kind
16:32
of set in stone a benefit of being a
16:35
part of the uk
16:37
why do you think this too has fallen by
16:40
the wayside
16:41
you know i think what we've seen over
16:42
the course of the last while so many
16:44
commitments that the conservative
16:46
government made in particular have been
16:48
shown to be worthless so you can talk
16:49
about the triple lock that we discussed
16:51
you can talk about the commitment to
16:53
spend 0.7 of uh national income on
16:57
overseas aid so i'm afraid unfortunately
17:01
none of the promises from the uk
17:03
government are what what the people they
17:05
are written on and again this comes back
17:07
to the type of country that you want to
17:09
be and the obligation
17:11
that you have and the commitment that we
17:13
have made manifesto commitment we have
17:15
made is that we would have retained the
17:17
triple lock
17:19
we want to make sure the pensioners are
17:21
properly rewarded we need to make sure
17:23
that people have access to pension
17:26
credit which has been another issue
17:28
where eligibility has been paired back
17:30
over the course of the last few years as
17:32
well so our commitment that we give to
17:34
pensioners but the commitment more
17:35
widely we give to society and scotland
17:37
is that we will take our
17:39
responsibilities seriously we have a man
17:41
in this manifesto commitment you need to
17:43
adhere to but you know all the
17:44
commitments have been made by the uk
17:46
government that
17:47
scotland was to
17:48
uh be a respected and a leading part of
17:50
the united kingdom her voice would be
17:52
heard that would remain as citizens of
17:53
the european union well you and i both
17:56
remember trying to put amendments into
17:57
the scotland act in 2015 when we were
18:01
first elected and and virtually all of
18:03
scotland's
18:05
mps were snp at that time yet all of the
18:08
amendments we put forward were rejected
18:10
so there was
18:11
no listening there turning to wider
18:14
issues i i want to talk about the
18:15
economy in general
18:17
we've seen through brexit the harm
18:19
that's been inflicted on our economy
18:21
it's really hammered our export trade
18:24
are you concerned that the damage that's
18:26
being done will be used to suggest that
18:28
scotland doesn't have a you know a
18:30
strong enough economy for independence i
18:32
mean the whole point is that scotland
18:34
has been held back
18:36
by being part of the united kingdom and
18:38
brexit is just a demonstration of that
18:40
and
18:41
i mean you can talk about all sorts of
18:42
real live examples i mean i met
18:45
a minister here in westminster this week
18:48
to discuss the impact of brexit on bobby
18:51
the the fish farm business and in
18:52
particular the fish feed operation that
18:54
they have on the iowa sky because all of
18:56
a sudden the ability of that plan to
18:58
export to europe has been constrained by
19:01
the fact that their products need to be
19:02
tested and that's taking a week for that
19:05
process to take place putting them are
19:07
very considerable
19:09
disadvantage to competitors elsewhere
19:11
and that's before we talk about the
19:13
problems that are going to come in with
19:15
importing raw materials for that plant
19:18
and we're talking the impact of that is
19:20
that that's less jobs than skype
19:22
that's that's the harsh reality it's
19:24
missed economic opportunity
19:27
but
19:28
the whole point about independence is
19:30
about taking responsibility to make sure
19:33
you can do things differently and
19:34
there's so many examples of where we've
19:36
been held back um so i mean let's just
19:39
think about energy and we all know that
19:40
we've got to have that transition to
19:43
that green future that we that we all
19:45
want to see but just when you look at
19:48
what's happened over the course of the
19:49
last few weeks
19:50
not getting carbon capture and storage
19:52
and scotland
19:53
is massively important would have
19:55
resulted in the creation of about 20 000
19:57
jobs for example
19:59
a key element of that transition that
20:01
has to take place and a key element by
20:03
the way of getting to net zero in 2045
20:06
now let me give you another example
20:07
um the snp and westminster have been
20:10
pushing quite extensively to make sure
20:12
that we get the
20:14
the investments that are required to
20:16
kick start the opportunities that there
20:17
are in entitlement now this is massively
20:20
important for us because when you think
20:22
about
20:23
the desire to deliver green energy but
20:25
also deliver green energy that's 24 7
20:27
365 days a year the difference between
20:30
tidal and traditional wind is that the
20:33
tide is always there
20:34
so we know we can deliver the baseload
20:37
electricity that we need to underpin our
20:39
system
20:40
and we demonstrated on the back of our
20:41
oil society report
20:43
that if we could get
20:45
what is in the context of investments in
20:47
energy a 70 million pound investment a
20:50
year by the uk government
20:52
that would allow a glide path to get to
20:55
15 of the uk's energy being delivered
20:58
how to tidal stream by 2050 so in other
21:01
words something which would be as
21:02
significant as nuclear is but without
21:05
the downsides of that investment in
21:07
nuclear the key point is when you look
21:09
at the investments that have already
21:10
taken place there admittedly at this
21:13
stage small
21:14
90 of the investment in the value chain
21:18
in tidal comes from the uk actually in
21:21
the case of scotland it's often as high
21:22
as eighty percent what a difference from
21:24
what's happened if i may say so with oil
21:27
and gas and wind where we will be able
21:29
to make sure that we capture that entire
21:32
entire value chain that we deliver the
21:34
jobs for scotland but again
21:36
we're being held back by the uk because
21:38
they've delivered an investment of 20
21:40
million welcome although that is it
21:43
doesn't allow us to grow this industry
21:45
as quickly and to the extent as we need
21:48
to and the reason these things are
21:49
important is you have to demonstrate
21:52
that these investments will deliver the
21:54
whole point about doing that is you then
21:56
bring significant private sector capital
21:59
in the government's got to take its
22:00
responsibilities first and it's that
22:04
failure of the uk government to
22:06
recognize its responsibility both in
22:09
terms of a sector that delivers green
22:11
dependable energy but something which is
22:14
going to kick-start economic growth now
22:15
let me let me widen this out because
22:18
this is really crucial in terms of the
22:21
overall strategy about how you deliver
22:22
economic growth and what you need to do
22:25
with that desire to deliver green energy
22:28
is you need to put that together with an
22:30
industrial strategy and you need to
22:32
think about the strategic objectives of
22:33
scotland you've got to think about the
22:35
areas where we can create value now for
22:37
example
22:38
if we can deliver this green dependable
22:40
energy we can start to think about
22:43
the power that's required for quite
22:45
energy intensive facilities like data
22:47
centers and start to think about the
22:49
digital capabilities that we can build
22:52
in scotland so there's masses of
22:54
opportunities but you need to have that
22:55
industrial plan that is something which
22:57
is absolutely sadly lacking from the uk
23:00
government so we'll take our
23:01
responsibilities and we'll deliver a
23:03
plan that will accelerate economic
23:05
growth in scotland deliver the wealth
23:08
deliver the resources for us to invest
23:10
in pensions deliver the resources that
23:12
allow us to tackle child poverty in
23:14
scotland these things are all linked
23:16
together you're talking there about that
23:17
massive opportunity for scotland through
23:20
independence and you've
23:21
pointed out how westminster is holding
23:23
scotland back with some really good
23:25
examples such as carbon capture and and
23:28
tidal and a range of things and earlier
23:31
i mentioned trade we we could go on and
23:34
on and on with example after example
23:36
isn't it the case now that we simply
23:38
can't afford to be in the union any
23:40
longer you know we can't afford to miss
23:42
the opportunities that we can create so
23:45
yeah look on on the one level i can
23:47
blame westminster for the things that
23:49
that haven't happened that we need to
23:51
happen but it's also about the
23:53
excitement about the opportunities that
23:54
we can create
23:55
i mean if you think about
23:58
an independent scotland in europe
24:00
and think about the opportunities that
24:01
would come from that an english-speaking
24:03
country
24:05
at that at the heart of europe in that
24:07
sense
24:08
then there are enormous opportunities we
24:10
need to have that lifeblood
24:12
of people being able to
24:14
come to work in scotland from europe and
24:16
our citizens been able to work in the
24:18
european union as well one of the things
24:20
which is really going to absolutely
24:21
massive for us going forward is the
24:23
strength of an academic sector we have a
24:25
sector that prospers on a global stage
24:27
until we get the standing of our
24:28
universities well higher passes at
24:31
record level since devolution more
24:33
school leavers and positive destinations
24:36
record numbers of students going to
24:38
university and
24:39
three scottish universities in the
24:41
world's top 100. take edinburgh as an
24:43
example running at 26 percent of the
24:46
academic personnel at emory university
24:48
are eu nationals
24:49
all of a sudden as a consequence of
24:51
brexit
24:52
our talent pool has become increasingly
24:55
shallow and we need to make sure we can
24:57
attract the best talent
24:59
but at the moment
25:00
that's not as easy as it was so if we're
25:02
to continue to excel if we're able to
25:05
show
25:06
that this is an area that will deliver
25:08
value for scotland you know one of the
25:09
most remarkable things over the last few
25:11
years
25:12
is the the uk government's lack of
25:15
ability to recognize that those that
25:17
come to study in scotland for example
25:18
have a value to our economy and the
25:20
removal of the post
25:22
study work visa is extraordinary because
25:25
you're talking about people that can and
25:27
want to make a contribution to our
25:28
future economic growth want to deal with
25:31
the demographic challenge in many ways
25:33
the way that we suffer from so it's
25:35
about
25:36
recognizing that with independence no
25:39
one's arguing it's going to be a land of
25:40
milk and honey that we fix everything in
25:42
day one but you create the circumstances
25:44
to allow the delivery of that economic
25:46
growth reposition the economy
25:49
for future decades for future
25:51
generations
25:52
and that you show that yes we can
25:53
deliver that we'll start to be able to
25:55
accelerate
25:56
economic growth in scotland from
25:57
creating that dynamic modern efficient
26:00
independent country that we can do other
26:02
independent countries also have their
26:04
challenges but they also have the powers
26:06
to realize their potential which is
26:09
something that scotland should really
26:10
have too isn't it well that's right and
26:12
and i talked about the the work of david
26:15
skilling and others demonstrating the
26:17
track record of small countries they're
26:18
all different i mean if you look at the
26:20
baltics the baltics are different from
26:21
norway from denmark from from ireland
26:24
and so on but they've all played to the
26:25
strengths and i think one of the key
26:27
things and this is particularly so for
26:29
small countries in the european union
26:31
you've got that ability to access that
26:32
larger market and that ability to access
26:35
that larger market tends to come with a
26:38
desire
26:39
to
26:40
exercise opportunities
26:42
to move quickly
26:43
to see the opportunities as they arise
26:46
and it comes back to the point i made
26:48
about there'd be no evidence of there
26:50
being uh opportunities of scale for
26:53
larger countries in fact it's the
26:54
reverse if you can show that you can you
26:56
can do that quickly there's lots of
26:58
things that we need to do and when the
26:59
scottish government's established an
27:01
investment bank for example and i'm
27:03
delighted that that is the case because
27:05
we need to start to think strategically
27:07
about the growth sectors we've got to
27:09
think about the choices that we make
27:11
one of the things again at the moment is
27:12
the investment bank is constrained to an
27:14
extent it has an annual budget of 200
27:17
million pounds a year
27:18
but as a consequence of treasury rules
27:21
it's not allowed to borrow but i want to
27:23
maximize that opportunity for us to have
27:25
a strategic investment bank that can
27:27
focus on the growth sectors for the
27:28
future and focus on the priorities that
27:31
they that the government has but has got
27:34
the ability to borrow on top of its
27:36
equity to accelerate that investment
27:38
that we that we need to make and i want
27:40
the investment bank to be able to
27:42
attract
27:43
talent whether that's from within
27:44
scotland or around with scotland
27:47
and create a vehicle that will encourage
27:48
other people to want to come and invest
27:51
whether it's through the investment bank
27:52
itself or elsewhere because they see
27:54
scotland as a destination it's a very
27:56
different philosophy than what we get
27:59
currently with the existing setup of
28:01
scotland as being part of the united
28:03
kingdom
28:04
when scotland becomes independent what
28:07
in your view is the one thing that
28:09
scotland can do
28:10
most quickly in terms of realizing our
28:12
potential or realizing a better society
28:16
well i mean obviously for us there is um
28:19
exasperation
28:21
a lot of the choices that the the uk
28:23
government makes and that's across many
28:24
fields we've just been debating today
28:26
immigration in this place for example so
28:29
we want to have a
28:30
a system which is fairer which
28:32
encourages people that want to make a
28:33
contribution that can make a
28:34
contribution to scotland to be able to
28:36
do that of something that's much more
28:38
structured when we want to be part of
28:40
free movement of people in the european
28:42
union because we've benefited from that
28:44
we will benefit from that again you look
28:46
at the choices that the uk government
28:48
has made on social policy and you look
28:50
at the shortcomings that there isn't
28:52
universal credit an area that you've
28:53
been
28:55
very vocal about the way that you treat
28:57
people and i suppose
28:59
i think one of the things at the core of
29:01
all of that in the uk
29:02
they tend to talk about
29:04
uh
29:05
they tend to talk about
29:07
welfare i mean that is a work which jars
29:10
with us because what we talk about is
29:13
social security and there's a phrase
29:14
that that i've used before the society
29:17
is only as strong as this week is link
29:19
so it's about how you create the
29:20
circumstances that allow people to make
29:22
a contribution to
29:24
to society how you value people the
29:26
importance and how you support people
29:27
who have already made a contribution to
29:29
society but have found themselves in
29:31
that in a difficult way which of course
29:33
happens it can happen to anybody the
29:35
whole wellness agenda that i that i
29:38
talked about earlier i think the point
29:39
about this too
29:41
and you think about our experiences in
29:43
government and the smp is now in a
29:45
cooperation agreement with the greens
29:47
it's not about us always being right us
29:49
having all the right answers we want to
29:52
be able to cooperate with others we want
29:53
to listen to others
29:55
we want to create a climate in scotland
29:58
where everybody feels that they're
29:59
valued and they're worth something it's
30:01
very different from what you what you
30:03
find in this place
30:05
so i think the way you set these things
30:08
up the way that you encourage people the
30:09
way that you show that they
30:11
not just the governments but other
30:12
institutions doors are open for people
30:15
to make a contribution and we pull
30:16
together as a country with the aim of of
30:19
creating that better society that's what
30:22
we will do
30:23
to finish off
30:24
can you say quickly what kind of country
30:26
you think scotland will become when it
30:28
becomes independent one one that values
30:31
people
30:32
one that allows people to
30:34
really show their potential but it has
30:36
to be in the basis that we deliver
30:39
fairness because there is too much
30:40
inequality in this society too many
30:42
people in the part of the country that
30:44
you and i live in where 40 percent of
30:46
pensioners are living in fuel poverty
30:48
for example so let's make sure that
30:50
people are looked after but they'll be
30:51
looked after on the basis
30:53
that we will grow the wealth in this
30:55
country
30:56
to make sure everyone has their power to
30:58
play and the people feel valued well my
31:00
thanks dean blackford for taking part
31:02
and to you for listening don't forget
31:04
you can find new and previous episodes
31:06
of scotland's choice at scotland's
31:08
choice dot scott
31:10
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if you can share this podcast that can
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help others with their decision on
31:15
scotland's
31:16
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31:19
join me next time on scotland's choice
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